Discussion:
Woman mugged on busy train in Mitcham
(too old to reply)
e27002 aurora
2016-08-04 09:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
Michael R N Dolbear
2016-08-04 16:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.

And if the mugger had used mace or pepper spray (and maybe a gas mask under
his hoodie ) ?
--
Mike D
s***@potato.field
2016-08-05 08:22:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:18:26 +0100
Post by e27002 aurora
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
And if the mugger had used mace or pepper spray (and maybe a gas mask under
his hoodie ) ?
He'd have been fine. However if the victim had used something like that on
the criminal she'd probably have been arrested and charged in the topsy turvy
world of law enforcement these days whereby victims are supposed to moderate
their response to being attacked. One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.

--
Spud
Martin Edwards
2016-08-06 06:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:18:26 +0100
Post by e27002 aurora
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
And if the mugger had used mace or pepper spray (and maybe a gas mask under
his hoodie ) ?
He'd have been fine. However if the victim had used something like that on
the criminal she'd probably have been arrested and charged in the topsy turvy
world of law enforcement these days whereby victims are supposed to moderate
their response to being attacked. One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
--
Spud
Reactionary self-pity.
--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
s***@potato.field
2016-08-08 08:41:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 07:15:01 +0100
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:18:26 +0100
Post by e27002 aurora
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
And if the mugger had used mace or pepper spray (and maybe a gas mask under
his hoodie ) ?
He'd have been fine. However if the victim had used something like that on
the criminal she'd probably have been arrested and charged in the topsy turvy
world of law enforcement these days whereby victims are supposed to moderate
their response to being attacked. One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
--
Spud
Reactionary self-pity.
Again, in intelligable English this time?

--
Spud
Martin Edwards
2016-08-09 06:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 07:15:01 +0100
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 17:18:26 +0100
Post by e27002 aurora
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
And if the mugger had used mace or pepper spray (and maybe a gas mask under
his hoodie ) ?
He'd have been fine. However if the victim had used something like that on
the criminal she'd probably have been arrested and charged in the topsy turvy
world of law enforcement these days whereby victims are supposed to moderate
their response to being attacked. One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
--
Spud
Reactionary self-pity.
Again, in intelligable English this time?
--
Spud
Apart from that, how was your goat hunt?
--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman
s***@potato.field
2016-08-09 08:25:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 07:14:58 +0100
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Martin Edwards
Reactionary self-pity.
Again, in intelligable English this time?
--
Spud
Apart from that, how was your goat hunt?
Sadly our old goat hunt came to nowt. We went up to Witton to find you but
it seems you'd slipped your leash. Maybe next time.

--
Spud
e27002 aurora
2016-08-19 06:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 07:14:58 +0100
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by s***@potato.field
Post by Martin Edwards
Reactionary self-pity.
Again, in intelligable English this time?
--
Spud
Apart from that, how was your goat hunt?
Sadly our old goat hunt came to nowt. We went up to Witton to find you but
it seems you'd slipped your leash. Maybe next time.
Well fielded.

The Real Doctor
2016-08-06 13:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
He'd have been fine. However if the victim had used something like that on
the criminal she'd probably have been arrested and charged in the topsy turvy
world of law enforcement these days whereby victims are supposed to moderate
their response to being attacked.
Nope. See http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/
Post by s***@potato.field
One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
You then end up with cases like the Trayvon Martin one where the
initiator of the confrontation was found to have legally killed the
victim of his actions when he started getting the worst of the fight. By
the same token a rape victim who fights back can lawfully be killed by
the rapist.

Ian
s***@potato.field
2016-08-08 08:42:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 14:56:41 +0100
Post by The Real Doctor
Post by s***@potato.field
He'd have been fine. However if the victim had used something like that on
the criminal she'd probably have been arrested and charged in the topsy turvy
world of law enforcement these days whereby victims are supposed to moderate
their response to being attacked.
Nope. See http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/
Post by s***@potato.field
One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
You then end up with cases like the Trayvon Martin one where the
initiator of the confrontation was found to have legally killed the
victim of his actions when he started getting the worst of the fight. By
the same token a rape victim who fights back can lawfully be killed by
the rapist.
I said if someone attacks you. Not if you're the attacker.

--
Spud
John Levine
2016-08-06 15:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@potato.field
One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
Despite what the papers might suggest, not all of the U.S. is Florida.

About half of US states have Stand Your Ground laws. They are rather
controversial since they in practice are It's OK to Shoot Black People
laws.
Michael R N Dolbear
2016-08-06 22:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Post by s***@potato.field
One good thing about the USA is if someone
physically attacks you they lose any rights to safety under the law and if
you shoot them dead then tough shit for them.
You still have to have self defense or some similar defence accepted, 50+
different laws, remember
But you would indeed find the law much more willing to accept you shooting
someone who was tryinh to kick in your door.
Post by John Levine
Despite what the papers might suggest, not all of the U.S. is Florida.
About half of US states have Stand Your Ground laws. They are rather
controversial since they in practice are It's OK to Shoot Black People laws.

Nope, just as in London, most black homicides are by black people. Black
politicians only care if they are shot by non-blacks or by police of any
race.
--
Mike D
e27002 aurora
2016-08-06 10:44:25 UTC
Permalink
If I said I was supporting everyone being armed with lethal force
(specifically guns), your argument would be reasonable.
Since I am not, it is not.
Never heard of escalation?
Yes. As in the word.
I don't see what point you are making though.
I carry pepper spray in case I'm mugged, so the criminal carries a
knife, so I carry a knife so the criminal carries a gun so I carry a
gunÂ…
The criminal carries a knife now. And you have nothing.
Population of London in the order of 20 million, may be 1000 carrying
knives, maybe another 1000 carrying some form of protective weapon such
as pepper spray. What are the odds of one coming up against the other?
In the case of the Russell Square attack the chances that an elderly
tourist would carry a spray is fairly minimal, the most likely would be
the perceived high risk group of young women in the 16-30 age group.
The Russell Square Victim, Darlene Horton, was visiting from the
Sovereign State of Florida. Clearly one does not know Ms Horton's
preference. But, in Florida it is far from unusual for ladies to
carry some means of self-defence. That is true of any age group.
I wouldn't mind the choice though.
Quite so.
Roland Perry
2016-08-06 12:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by e27002 aurora
The Russell Square Victim, Darlene Horton, was visiting from the
Sovereign State of Florida. Clearly one does not know Ms Horton's
preference. But, in Florida it is far from unusual for ladies to
carry some means of self-defence. That is true of any age group.
In one of my first (of many) trips to Atlanta in the 80's I learnt two
(surprising to me at the time) things:

1) My agency staff at the trade show, mainly very attractive female
University students doing a part-time job demonstrating our company's IT
wares to the visitors, would never dream of entering the City Centre
without a handgun in their purse. The "other than by their own car" was
less surprising.

2) None of them had ever seen a [British] passport, nor even a USA one.

For the avoidance of doubt, I never got "involved" with any of them, but
I did with their manager (who has been my wife for some 30yrs now).
--
Roland Perry
e27002 aurora
2016-08-06 13:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by e27002 aurora
The Russell Square Victim, Darlene Horton, was visiting from the
Sovereign State of Florida. Clearly one does not know Ms Horton's
preference. But, in Florida it is far from unusual for ladies to
carry some means of self-defence. That is true of any age group.
In one of my first (of many) trips to Atlanta in the 80's I learnt two
1) My agency staff at the trade show, mainly very attractive female
University students doing a part-time job demonstrating our company's IT
wares to the visitors, would never dream of entering the City Centre
without a handgun in their purse. The "other than by their own car" was
less surprising.
2) None of them had ever seen a [British] passport, nor even a USA one.
For the avoidance of doubt, I never got "involved" with any of them, but
I did with their manager (who has been my wife for some 30yrs now).
During the mid to late 1980s I was working in Plainview, Jefferson
County, Kentucky. A lady colleugue returned from a vacation London.
She enjoyed her time in the UK, but was surprised that Customs at
Heathrow confiscated her mace.
Graeme Wall
2016-08-06 14:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by e27002 aurora
Post by Roland Perry
Post by e27002 aurora
The Russell Square Victim, Darlene Horton, was visiting from the
Sovereign State of Florida. Clearly one does not know Ms Horton's
preference. But, in Florida it is far from unusual for ladies to
carry some means of self-defence. That is true of any age group.
In one of my first (of many) trips to Atlanta in the 80's I learnt two
1) My agency staff at the trade show, mainly very attractive female
University students doing a part-time job demonstrating our company's IT
wares to the visitors, would never dream of entering the City Centre
without a handgun in their purse. The "other than by their own car" was
less surprising.
2) None of them had ever seen a [British] passport, nor even a USA one.
For the avoidance of doubt, I never got "involved" with any of them, but
I did with their manager (who has been my wife for some 30yrs now).
During the mid to late 1980s I was working in Plainview, Jefferson
County, Kentucky. A lady colleugue returned from a vacation London.
She enjoyed her time in the UK, but was surprised that Customs at
Heathrow confiscated her mace.
But left her the orb and sceptre?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
The Real Doctor
2016-08-06 13:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
And if her assailant had mace or pepper spray too?

Ian
Christopher A. Lee
2016-08-06 20:52:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 14:29:18 +0100, The Real Doctor
Post by The Real Doctor
Post by e27002 aurora
Had the lady used mace or pepper spray, the tables would have been
turned.
And if her assailant had mace or pepper spray too?
Ian
You're not supposed to ask that.

Or what would have happened if it just been a heated argument and both
of them were carrying it.
e27002 aurora
2016-08-19 06:55:49 UTC
Permalink
[...]
And it's utterly pathetic that the law has not had an exception for
pepper spray.
You have a woman knifed to death in Russel Square. She is denied the
right to carry even a low grade self defence weapon, while her attacker
walks around with a knife.
The pepper spray may not work in all cases (surprise attack) but at
least it would give the victim a sporting chance.
Police? Ha! The only place I see policemen walking is up the Strand and
that's because there's a very large police station there.
Seriously - in 1968 there were beat coppers in much higher numbers than
now - the law seriously needs to be redressed.
A friend of mine (female) who lives in New York has a good male friend
who was erroneously and liberally pepper sprayed by a rather paranoid
woman late at night just outside a subway station, resulting in
hospitalisation.
Essentially the police said yes it was assault (or whatever equivalent),
but that it'd be too hard to make a case against the woman, so that was
that.
He's got an athletic build but he doesn't come across as at all
threatening. He's mixed race, which a minus mark when dealing with the
justice system there. FWIW he's an elementary school teacher.
I'm wary of pepper spray or other (as you call them) 'low grade self
defence weapons'.
Plus, similar to the self-defence argument with firearms on the other
side of the Atlantic, there's the idea that a self-defence weapon will
inevitably or even likely be used by the holder at the moment of threat.
I wasn't there in Russell Square, and nor were you, so neither of us can
say with any confidence what might have otherwise transpired, but as a
more general point I am sceptical that people will be ready and prepared
to use a self-defence weapon in such incidences that happen here once in
a blue moon.
I don't however remotely like the idea that people might be going around
poised for a fight or incident the whole time. It's good to be a bit
streetwise, yes, but not a state of perpetual alert for an imminent attack.
Having spent a quarter century living, and working, in those United
States, I have yet to meet a lady colleague, or female friend, who
"goes around poised for a fight".

One does not ask, but it is likely many of these ladies carry some
means of defence. It would be normal to be wary of someone too close
while one is using an ATM. Likewise, a lone male loitering in a mall
parking lot would be someone to avoid.

These things are normal common sense. You do not need to impute more
sinister motives.
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