London Oyster and Contactless on NR

[e27002 aurora]

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.
But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.
So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

[e27002 aurora]

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.
But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.
So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

[e27002 aurora]

Post by e27002 aurora

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.
But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.
So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?

Typo in a group name first time thru.

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

And do you not think the systems will evolve to remove some of the
idiosyncrasies

Hope springs eternal.

[Roland Perry]

Post by e27002 aurora

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

I'm more interested in why the lack of discount for *National Rail*
journeys which just happen to be inside the Oyster area, and paid for by
Oyster.

eg Gatwick to Elstree (surely soon also Luton Airport Parkway).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

[e27002 aurora]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

I'm more interested in why the lack of discount for *National Rail*
journeys which just happen to be inside the Oyster area, and paid for by
Oyster.

Oyster is TfL's baby and they operate to their own rules ignoring the
discounts to which passengers are entitled.

Post by Roland Perry
egg Gatwick to Elstree (surely soon also Luton Airport Parkway).
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

If they pull these stunts on the Elizabeth Line there may be a
backlash from passengers on the former Western Region.

[e27002 aurora]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"

Post by e27002 aurora

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.
But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.
So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?
And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

I think we know why Adrian thinks the way he does: TfL is controlled by a
Labour mayor, while the DfT is headed by a right-wing secretary of state.
Ergo, everything that TfL does must be bad, and everything the DfT does
must have been for the best possible reasons.

We can safely ignore Nigel's haverings. This about passenger value
for money, and passenger convenience. If a customer is entitled to a
discount he should receive it.

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the Ft.'s
preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart, is
neither here nor there.

But everyone else uses ITSO.

The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

[Roland Perry]

Post by e27002 aurora
The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

It's called "cash".

[Certes]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora
The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

It's called "cash".

Again, available virtually everywhere except London buses.

[e27002 aurora]

Post by e27002 aurora
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT), "R. Mark Clayton"

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the
Ft.'s preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart,
is neither here nor there.

But everyone else uses ITSO.

The UK need to have a common standard developed, it should be legally
available across all public railway and bus networks.

That was supposed to be ITSO but even within the same company's operations
it isn't inter-available

Someone dropped the ball on that one!

and anyway on card storage technology is
obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

[Roland Perry]

Post by e27002 aurora

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.

What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.

Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.

The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.

Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.

I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

[e27002 aurora]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.
What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.
Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.
The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.
Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?
Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.
I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

A few months back my replacement debit card arrived from my US
bankers. Finally! it is chip & pin. That is close to a decade after
the UK banks. BUT, it is not contactless.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.
What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.
Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.
The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.
Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/apple-pay>

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/android-pay>

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile>

Post by Roland Perry
Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.
I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

Like you, I somehow doubt it. I don't think many US credit cards are
contactless.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<2128631847.525611715.766279.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 11:15:22 on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.
What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.
Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.
The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.
Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-cont
actless-payment/apple-pay>

They must have slipped that in without me noticing. Where on the gate is
the Apple-pay logo?

Post by Recliner
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-cont
actless-payment/android-pay>
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-cont
actless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile>

Post by Roland Perry
Carrying a physical Credit Card is just so passé, my dharling.
I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

Like you, I somehow doubt it. I don't think many US credit cards are
contactless.

Nor are all my UK ones. The one I'd use the most (debit card on business
account) is a far as I can tell not available in contactless at all.
Maybe they don't like the idea of unauthorised overdrafts (contrary to
popular belief, regular contactless transactions don't necessarily debit
your balance in real time, and of course TfL ones won't hit until
overnight).

[unknown]

Post by Roland Perry
In message
ember.org>, at 11:15:22 on Mon, 28 Aug 2017, Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

and anyway on card storage technology is obsolescent now.

So, what's next?

They are attempting to externalise the cost to the customer, so that the
pays for the storage medium (a smartphone) and its connectivity.
What's interesting from a technology-watcher's point of view is that the
railways don't have the slightest idea how this is all going to end up,
let alone how to get from here to there.
Since ITSO from 2009 we've had numerous pilots: barcodes on phones using
MMS or other generic technology, barcodes on phones delivered by a
special app, combined credit card and Oyster (to combat 'card bloat'),
trying to second guess the ticketing cost by examining your location
trails, NFC on phones [basically turning the phone's back cover into a
smartcard], and even embedding a traditional smartcard in the phone.
The only one that's showing staying power is Contactless Credit Cards.
Hmm, I wonder if that's planned to work with any third party
pay-by-phone contactless technologies [from Apple Pay via Google pay to
quirky ones like PayQwiq - pass the siqwbag], other than *just*
Visa/Mastercard?

<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-cont
actless-payment/apple-pay>

They must have slipped that in without me noticing. Where on the gate is
the Apple-pay logo?

Not needed if a reader does contactless it does Apple or Android pay

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-cont
actless-payment/android-pay>
<https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-cont
actless-payment/barclaycard-and-barclays-contactless-mobile>

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry
I have a visitor arriving at Heathrow from the USA next week, and it'll
be interesting to see if his credit card works the TfL gates.

I've used my U.S. AmEx on the tube. Worked fine. It's contactless
chip and signature.

If your friend's credit card doesn't work, that's probably because
it's not contactless. In my experience the majority of US cards are
still not, even though they have contact chips.

With respect to Apple Pay and Android Pay, it was my impression that
they use the same interface as contactless cards, so they should
work automagically on any contactless payment device. I should try
my phone when I'm in London in the spring.

R's,
John

[e27002 aurora]

Post by e27002 aurora

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.
But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.
So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?
And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

I think we know why Adrian thinks the way he does: TfL is controlled by a
Labour mayor, while the DfT is headed by a right-wing secretary of state.
Ergo, everything that TfL does must be bad, and everything the DfT does
must have been for the best possible reasons.
The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the DfT's
preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart, is
neither here nor there.

But everyone else uses ITSO.

DfT has abandoned it. It will now probably fade away as more modern
methods take over.

So, what comes next? SWT had only been promoting their card for about
a year when their franchise ended!

One hopes other railways are not going to copy LU's example and charge
straight to debit cards. That would make discounted tickets and
seasons very hard to implement.

[Roland Perry]

Post by e27002 aurora

DfT has abandoned it. It will now probably fade away as more modern
methods take over.

So, what comes next? SWT had only been promoting their card for about
a year when their franchise ended!

That's not true, it was one of the first to be launched, back in 2009.

[e27002 aurora]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

DfT has abandoned it. It will now probably fade away as more modern
methods take over.

So, what comes next? SWT had only been promoting their card for about
a year when their franchise ended!

That's not true, it was one of the first to be launched, back in 2009.

OK. I only became of it after a publicity push a while back. It will
be interesting to see what SWT do. Overall, I am not optimistic about
the new franchise. Stagecoach have a better reputation than First
Group.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by e27002 aurora

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

DfT has abandoned it. It will now probably fade away as more modern
methods take over.

So, what comes next? SWT had only been promoting their card for about
a year when their franchise ended!

That's not true, it was one of the first to be launched, back in 2009.

OK. I only became of it after a publicity push a while back. It will
be interesting to see what SWT do. O

Can't see SWT doing anything now :-)

[Recliner]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by e27002 aurora

Post by Roland Perry

Post by e27002 aurora

DfT has abandoned it. It will now probably fade away as more modern
methods take over.

So, what comes next? SWT had only been promoting their card for about
a year when their franchise ended!

That's not true, it was one of the first to be launched, back in 2009.

OK. I only became of it after a publicity push a while back. It will
be interesting to see what SWT do. O

Can't see SWT doing anything now :-)

I wonder if SWR will acquire the nickname "the Swear"?

[d***@yahoo.co.uk]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 11:27:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by e27002 aurora
OK. I only became of it after a publicity push a while back. It will
be interesting to see what SWT do. O

Can't see SWT doing anything now :-)

I wonder if SWR will acquire the nickname "the Swear"?

It they get really unpopular they might become the Sewer , might be
apt that a connection from the city might be down the drain and then
along the Sewer.

G.Harman

[Anna Noyd-Dryver]

Post by e27002 aurora

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.
But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.
So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

Expensive walk-up fares but Oxford Circus-Paddington for 3p if you book
three weeks ahead and travel on a specific train?


Anna Noyd-Dryver