Woking to Heathrow

Post by e27002 aurora
OK, so I have had it with the Woking RailAir coach link. I need an
alternative means of reaching the airport. Train from the South Coast
to Woking is fine. But what are the alternatives for reaching the
airport?

Where is your journey starting from?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

e27002 aurora

2017-04-01 10:07:16 UTC

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 09:14:03 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver

Where is your journey starting from?

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

e27002 aurora

2017-04-03 07:48:28 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

The national rail journey planner suggests a number of options - Waterloo,
Paddington, Heathrow or Southampton, Reading, the other railair coach.
If you're going to do part of the journey by coach you could do the whole
journey by National Express - half an hour longer but a quarter of the
rail price. That's what I do from the West Country rather than messing
around at Reading.
(Travelling off-peak from Portsmouth Harbour seems to save a whole 3%
off the anytime fare. How generous.)

Using Portsmouth Harbour would mean travelling in the opposite
direction, probably be rail! But that one might be doable.

The sanest suggestion is to travel to Waterloo, then taxi to
Paddington, then Heathrow Express. But, if I use a taxi to cross
central London, I may as well use one from Woking and save an hour.

tim...

2017-04-03 08:04:24 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

why would you get a taxi from Waterloo to Padd when there's a direct tube
line?

tim

Graeme Wall

2017-04-03 08:22:54 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

why would you get a taxi from Waterloo to Padd when there's a direct
tube line?

IIRC Adrian has a medical condition which may make humping suitcases on
and off the tube rather onerous. He is probably right in saying that a
taxi from Woking is probably better than taxi and Heathrow Express from
Padd. There are also a number of specialist airport service car hire
companies in the Woking/Guildford area that might work out cheaper than
a taxi off the rank.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

e27002 aurora

2017-04-03 08:27:52 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

why would you get a taxi from Waterloo to Padd when there's a direct tube
line?

Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Recliner

2017-04-03 09:05:40 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

why would you get a taxi from Waterloo to Padd when there's a direct tube
line?

Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

On my most recent long haul trip, I had two wheelie suitcases, a
medium-sized backpack and a shoulder bag. I got all the way home from
Heathrow using public transport, but wasn't popular getting that lot off a
packed bus!

tim...

2017-04-03 10:53:30 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

why would you get a taxi from Waterloo to Padd when there's a direct tube
line?

Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Not many people travel with that much luggage and even consider getting
to/from the airport by PT

even transporting that lot around the terminal is a PITA

The worst that I ever tried was a maximum sized wheelie suitcase and a carry
on wheelie suitcase

I really need a large rucksack ;-)

tim

tim...

2017-04-03 10:49:43 UTC

Starting from the Portsmouth area.

why would you get a taxi from Waterloo to Padd when there's a direct tube
line?

Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

yep

every time I go to LHR (on the Picc)

tim

e27002 aurora

2017-04-03 11:46:48 UTC

Post by e27002 aurora
Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

yep
every time I go to LHR (on the Picc)
tim

You may be younger and in better health than me. I would struggle,
and try the patience of my fellow passengers.

Jarle Hammen Knudsen

2017-04-04 09:12:51 UTC

On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:27:52 +0100, e27002 aurora

Post by e27002 aurora
Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Yes, but in later years it's been two suitcases and a carry-on
backpack, and often a large shoulder bag added when going home.

bus -> Walthamstow Central Vic -> Picc change at the obvious place ->
Heathrow.

--
jhk

s***@potato.field

2017-04-04 09:31:58 UTC

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:12:51 +0200

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:27:52 +0100, e27002 aurora

Post by e27002 aurora
Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Yes, but in later years it's been two suitcases and a carry-on
backpack, and often a large shoulder bag added when going home.

Why do some people feel the need to take half their wardrobe with them when
they go on holiday? If I can't fit everything into a medium sized hold-all
when I go away then I chuck stuff out until I can.

--
Spud

Jeremy Double

2017-04-04 16:20:19 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:12:51 +0200

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:27:52 +0100, e27002 aurora

Post by e27002 aurora
Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Yes, but in later years it's been two suitcases and a carry-on
backpack, and often a large shoulder bag added when going home.

How do you fit in your walking boots, waterproofs, fleece, walking
trousers, etc with shirts and underwear for a couple of weeks into that?

;-)

--
Jeremy Double

Mark Goodge

2017-04-04 17:59:17 UTC

Post by Jeremy Double

Post by s***@potato.field
On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:12:51 +0200

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:27:52 +0100, e27002 aurora

Post by e27002 aurora
Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Yes, but in later years it's been two suitcases and a carry-on
backpack, and often a large shoulder bag added when going home.

How do you fit in your walking boots, waterproofs, fleece, walking
trousers, etc with shirts and underwear for a couple of weeks into that?
;-)

You wear your walking boots, waterproofs, fleece and walking trousers,
of course. That leaves space in the holdall for the underwear and
shirts. You may get strange looks in the terminal, but it certainly
minimises luggage :-)

Disregarding the smiley, when I used to fly to Switzerland regularly
for my work, usually just for two to four days at a time, I found that
travelling in winter made it a lot easier to have everything in
carry-on luggage, as a big coat with lots of pockets can take a
surprising amount of stuff.

Mark

d***@yahoo.co.uk

2017-04-04 18:34:03 UTC

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:59:17 +0100, Mark Goodge

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by Jeremy Double
How do you fit in your walking boots, waterproofs, fleece, walking
trousers, etc with shirts and underwear for a couple of weeks into that?
;-)

Apart from the waterproofs I have done that a couple of times,of
course if you are traveling to somewhere where it is hot at the
airport but taking clothing for colder parts of the country it can be
a bit uncomfortable till you can change.

Post by Mark Goodge
Disregarding the smiley, when I used to fly to Switzerland regularly
for my work, usually just for two to four days at a time, I found that
travelling in winter made it a lot easier to have everything in
carry-on luggage, as a big coat with lots of pockets can take a
surprising amount of stuff.

Some firms make special wearable luggage now if people want to take
things to extremes.
eg http://www.jaktogo.com/

I expect that shoplifters could be another marketing opportunity.

G.Harman

Certes

2017-04-04 19:32:37 UTC

Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Some firms make special wearable luggage now if people want to take
things to extremes.
eg http://www.jaktogo.com/
I expect that shoplifters could be another marketing opportunity.
G.Harman

Producing goods that are attractive to shoplifters may not be a
profitable strategy.

Graeme Wall

2017-04-04 20:11:48 UTC

Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:59:17 +0100, Mark Goodge

Post by Mark Goodge

Post by Jeremy Double
How do you fit in your walking boots, waterproofs, fleece, walking
trousers, etc with shirts and underwear for a couple of weeks into that?
;-)

Some firms make special wearable luggage now if people want to take
things to extremes.
eg http://www.jaktogo.com/
I expect that shoplifters could be another marketing opportunity.

Round your part of the world I would have thought poachers were ahead of
the game.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

ColinR

2017-04-04 20:28:14 UTC

On 04/04/2017 18:59, Mark Goodge wrote:
[snip]

Post by Mark Goodge
You wear your walking boots, waterproofs, fleece and walking trousers,
of course. That leaves space in the holdall for the underwear and
shirts. You may get strange looks in the terminal, but it certainly
minimises luggage :-)
Disregarding the smiley, when I used to fly to Switzerland regularly
for my work, usually just for two to four days at a time, I found that
travelling in winter made it a lot easier to have everything in
carry-on luggage, as a big coat with lots of pockets can take a
surprising amount of stuff.

Can recall flying from Saudi Arabia on a flight late evening (still hot
and humid) and watching a passenger wearing shorts and T-shirt shivering
walking from the plane at Charles de Galle at something like 0600 in the
winter ...

--
Colin

s***@potato.field

2017-04-05 08:32:49 UTC

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:59:17 +0100

I don't fly much, but when I do I get everything in a carry on (since like a
lot of people these days I never go away for more than a week at a time due to
work). Its such a nice feeling breezing past all the poor sods at baggage
collection!

--
Spud

tim...

2017-04-04 10:21:10 UTC

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:27:52 +0100, e27002 aurora

Post by e27002 aurora
Have you ever tried to manoeuvre on the Underground with a large
suitcase and a sizable piece of hand baggage, i.e. a pilot's case? I
only tried once. :-)

Yes, but in later years it's been two suitcases and a carry-on
backpack, and often a large shoulder bag added when going home.

if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

tim

Jarle Hammen Knudsen

2017-04-04 12:09:52 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

And it's about £25 per extra bag with one bag included.

--
jhk

tim...

2017-04-05 08:30:29 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

because that's what some airlines charge

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
And it's about £25 per extra bag with one bag included.

for the first bag, many airlines have a much higher charge for the second
extra bag, typically 60-70 pounds

which (plus the first bag's 25 quid) times 2 is 200 quid (close enough)

tim

Recliner

2017-04-05 09:30:45 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

because that's what some airlines charge

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
And it's about £25 per extra bag with one bag included.

for the first bag, many airlines have a much higher charge for the second
extra bag, typically 60-70 pounds
which (plus the first bag's 25 quid) times 2 is 200 quid (close enough)

You seem to assume that everyone flies on LCCs; some of us prefer, and can
afford, not to.

These are the baggage allowances I normally get:

Carry on:
1 handbag/laptop bag (max. 23kg / 51lb and up to 45 x 36 x 20cm / 18 x 14 x
8in)
plus
1 additional cabin bag (max. 23kg / 51lb and up to 56 x 45 x 25cm / 22 x 18
x 10in)

Checked:
2 bags (max. 32kg / 70lb per bag)

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/baggage-essentials

tim...

2017-04-05 15:10:50 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

because that's what some airlines charge

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
And it's about £25 per extra bag with one bag included.

for the first bag, many airlines have a much higher charge for the second
extra bag, typically 60-70 pounds
which (plus the first bag's 25 quid) times 2 is 200 quid (close enough)

You seem to assume that everyone flies on LCCs; some of us prefer, and can
afford, not to.

No, even some of the majors charge this

Post by Recliner
1 handbag/laptop bag (max. 23kg / 51lb and up to 45 x 36 x 20cm / 18 x 14 x
8in)
plus
1 additional cabin bag (max. 23kg / 51lb and up to 56 x 45 x 25cm / 22 x 18
x 10in)
2 bags (max. 32kg / 70lb per bag)

unless flying to a short list of countries, that will be premium economy
then - so you've paid how much extra for the flight to get this "free" bag?

tim

Recliner

2017-04-05 15:34:56 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

because that's what some airlines charge

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
And it's about £25 per extra bag with one bag included.

for the first bag, many airlines have a much higher charge for the second
extra bag, typically 60-70 pounds
which (plus the first bag's 25 quid) times 2 is 200 quid (close enough)

You seem to assume that everyone flies on LCCs; some of us prefer, and can
afford, not to.

No, even some of the majors charge this

unless flying to a short list of countries, that will be premium economy
then - so you've paid how much extra for the flight to get this "free" bag?

No, I've never flown BA Premium Economy. I nearly always fly business
class.

Nobody

2017-04-05 17:52:28 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

because that's what some airlines charge

Post by Jarle Hammen Knudsen
And it's about £25 per extra bag with one bag included.

for the first bag, many airlines have a much higher charge for the second
extra bag, typically 60-70 pounds
which (plus the first bag's 25 quid) times 2 is 200 quid (close enough)

You seem to assume that everyone flies on LCCs; some of us prefer, and can
afford, not to.

No, even some of the majors charge this

unless flying to a short list of countries, that will be premium economy
then - so you've paid how much extra for the flight to get this "free" bag?
tim

Huh? Icelandair YVR-KEF-ARN, & OSL-KEF-YVR last August had one
carry-on, one checked included in base cattle class.

A recent Air Canada YVR-SYD, and SCL-YYZ-YVR was the same, including
the domestic sector.

Jarle Hammen Knudsen

2017-04-05 14:11:03 UTC

Post by tim...
if you're paying 200 pounds in excess baggage fee, the cost of the taxi is
immaterial

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

because that's what some airlines charge

The other conclusion, that the cost of the taxi is immaterial.

--
jhk

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 10:08:45 UTC

Where is your journey starting from?

And don't tell us - just stick it (and LHR) in Google maps and punch the
"train" icon.

Although if the Reading Railair link is out too, it may well be "via
Central London" is the only answer [including some via Reading,
Paddington and back].

--
Roland Perry

D A Stocks

2017-04-01 11:15:44 UTC

Post by e27002 aurora
Has anyone used Uber? How does it work? What is the service like?

It depends a lot on whether the service even exists in your area (I know
people who use it from Heathrow) and how many active drivers there are at
the time you want to travel.

I set up my Uber account when I was in New Jersey on business for a couple
of weeks during the summer of 2015. It worked well there. You need the Uber
app on your mobile with a registration that is easy to set up.

After that the rules vary slightly by location, but the basics are:
1. use the the app to book a ride
2. your car turns up and you get in. The app gives you the driver's name and
'phone number, and the registration/description of the car. The driver will
call you if they can't find you or there is a delay.
3. when you reach your destination you get out.

That's it: no fiddling with cash or hand-written receipts (I lost a wallet
this way in a taxi recently) - it's all done by payment card and email. For
Brighton and Sussex there is a guide here:
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/cities/brighton-and-sussex/

Uber first became available in Brighton and Hove about a year ago but when I
tried it soon after the launch there were never any drivers available, so I
have always used one of the local taxi firms booking by phone from home or
by taking a taxi off the rank from a local station. However, when I arrived
at Brighton Station last Thursday evening the length of queue at the rank
suggested it would be at least 10-15 minutes before I would get a ride (for
a 5 minute journey); this is because the daft queuing system only allows 1
or 2 taxis to load at a time, leading to long queues of both passengers and
taxis at busy times.

I fired up the Uber app and there were cars available within a couple of
minutes from a pick-up point just outside the station so I went for it. The
driver told me there are now around 90 drivers operating in the area, and
the fare was quite a bit less than a metered taxi. I may well take another
look at Uber when I make the reverse journey at 5.00 am on Monday morning:
no more messing about with cash and and, if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

--
DAS

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 13:01:44 UTC

I may well take another look at Uber when I make the reverse journey at
5.00 am on Monday morning: no more messing about with cash and and, if
my initial experience is anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers
and cheaper. What's not to like?

The alleged exploitation of their workers, the implications for
proportionate corporation tax receipts flowing to the UK, and the
possibility that having captured the market they can hike their fares.

History also shows that startups such as this are exceptional if they
succeed in the medium-long term, so what's your exit strategy if they
pull out of the Brighton market?

This is just a generic observation of the venture capital funded world,
not a prediction about any particular company trading today.

The BBC opines: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29653830

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-01 13:36:46 UTC

I may well take another look at Uber when I make the reverse journey at
5.00 am on Monday morning: no more messing about with cash and and, if my
initial experience is anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and
cheaper. What's not to like?

the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the market
through lower fares and then hike them when the competition pulls out

the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take your
fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon pile back
in again.

to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever

which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to support
that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to grab market
share doesn't work.

Post by Roland Perry
History also shows that startups such as this are exceptional if they
succeed in the medium-long term, so what's your exit strategy if they pull
out of the Brighton market?

catch the bus

He's a user not an investor

And they aren't selling a unique product

Post by Roland Perry
This is just a generic observation of the venture capital funded world,
not a prediction about any particular company trading today.
The BBC opines: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29653830

Careful, Recliner will be along soon to tell you you are an idiot

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 13:58:05 UTC

Post by tim...
the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the
market through lower fares and then hike them when the competition
pulls out
the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take
your fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon
pile back in again.
to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever
which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to
support that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to
grab market share doesn't work.

Except Uber is trying that. So your theory crashes in flames.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-01 14:50:48 UTC

Post by tim...
the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the
market through lower fares and then hike them when the competition pulls
out
the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take your
fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon pile back
in again.
to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever
which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to support
that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to grab
market share doesn't work.

Except Uber is trying that.

I know

Post by Roland Perry
So your theory crashes in flames.

but as it hasn't got to the "lets put the fares up again" bit, how does,
where we are now prove that it will work?

There is a theory that its real MO is,

1) force out the competition

2) replace cars with self driving cars and put the fares up

But I don't believe that model will work either as:

a) I believe the date that driverless cars will be routinely available is 10
years beyond what the optimists think the date will be. (We have discussed
this before and you were in the same place as me), Uber can't survive that
long subsidising fares.

b) It will change the Uber business model from one of the owner-driver
financing the cars to Uber financing the cars, and I don't believe that the
financial markets will give Uber (FTAOD any one company, whoever they are)
the money to finance 100% of the world's taxi-cabs[1]. So there will still
be room for other companies to finance self-driving cabs and come into the
market and compete on a country by country basis. Uber does not own any of
the necessary IPR in self driving. There's nothing here that cannot be
replicated by someone else.

tim

[1] a finger in the air figure of about 250 trillion pounds, 400 times
Uber's current valuation

Graeme Wall

2017-04-01 16:38:01 UTC

Except Uber is trying that.

I know

Post by Roland Perry
So your theory crashes in flames.

but as it hasn't got to the "lets put the fares up again" bit, how does,
where we are now prove that it will work?
There is a theory that its real MO is,
1) force out the competition
2) replace cars with self driving cars and put the fares up
a) I believe the date that driverless cars will be routinely available
is 10 years beyond what the optimists think the date will be. (We have
discussed this before and you were in the same place as me), Uber can't
survive that long subsidising fares.

A recent New Scientist article was discussing how you programme ethical
considerations into self-driving cars!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Arthur Figgis

2017-04-01 18:43:35 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
A recent New Scientist article was discussing how you programme ethical
considerations into self-driving cars!

Have they managed to figure out how to do that for runaway railway
trolleys approaching points yet?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Graeme Wall

2017-04-01 19:20:57 UTC

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Graeme Wall
A recent New Scientist article was discussing how you programme ethical
considerations into self-driving cars!

Have they managed to figure out how to do that for runaway railway
trolleys approaching points yet?

That was quoted in the article.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 16:53:07 UTC

Except Uber is trying that.

I know

Post by Roland Perry
So your theory crashes in flames.

but as it hasn't got to the "lets put the fares up again" bit, how
does, where we are now prove that it will work?

That's what the investors and the competition regulators do for a
living, predicting how it will all turn out.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-01 17:53:45 UTC

Post by tim...
the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the
market through lower fares and then hike them when the competition pulls
out
the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take
your fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon
pile back in again.
to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever
which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to
support that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to
grab market share doesn't work.

Except Uber is trying that.

I know

Post by Roland Perry
So your theory crashes in flames.

but as it hasn't got to the "lets put the fares up again" bit, how does,
where we are now prove that it will work?

That's what the investors

Yep, they are taking the risk along with Uber.

That doesn't mean that they are any more correct in a view that it will
succeed.

Post by Roland Perry
and the competition regulators do for a living, predicting how it will all
turn out.

They can only take pre-emptive action if considering a takeover in an
industry.

They can only act retrospectively if a monopolistic position obtained from a
commercial advantage has been abused.

They have no mechanism to say to a new entrant - sorry you can't price your
product under costs because it may force a competitor into bankruptcy

tim

Post by Roland Perry
--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2017-04-01 15:29:22 UTC

I may well take another look at Uber when I make the reverse journey at
5.00 am on Monday morning: no more messing about with cash and and, if my
initial experience is anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and
cheaper. What's not to like?

the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the market
through lower fares and then hike them when the competition pulls out
the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take your
fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon pile back
in again.
to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever
which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to support
that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to grab market
share doesn't work.

Post by Roland Perry
History also shows that startups such as this are exceptional if they
succeed in the medium-long term, so what's your exit strategy if they pull
out of the Brighton market?

catch the bus
He's a user not an investor
And they aren't selling a unique product

Careful, Recliner will be along soon to tell you you are an idiot

Huh? Why would I do that? I invest in many venture capital funds, and am
well aware that many startups fail. I've also long thought that many IT
companies are over-valued.

tim...

2017-04-01 17:44:43 UTC

I may well take another look at Uber when I make the reverse journey at
5.00 am on Monday morning: no more messing about with cash and and, if my
initial experience is anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and
cheaper. What's not to like?

the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the market
through lower fares and then hike them when the competition pulls out
the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take your
fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon pile back
in again.
to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever
which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to support
that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to grab market
share doesn't work.

Post by Roland Perry
History also shows that startups such as this are exceptional if they
succeed in the medium-long term, so what's your exit strategy if they pull
out of the Brighton market?

catch the bus
He's a user not an investor
And they aren't selling a unique product

Careful, Recliner will be along soon to tell you you are an idiot

Huh? Why would I do that? I invest in many venture capital funds, and am
well aware that many startups fail. I've also long thought that many IT
companies are over-valued.

because that's what you did when I questioned the possibility that Uber
might fail in an earlier discussion

you used the spurious argument that some large company (Amazon was it) had
invested and they wouldn't be investing in a company that might fail.

On that basis you should hold the opinion that none of these billion dollar
companies can fail because it is 100% certain that all of them have the
backing of some large company or other

tim

Recliner

2017-04-01 20:09:45 UTC

I may well take another look at Uber when I make the reverse journey at
5.00 am on Monday morning: no more messing about with cash and and, if my
initial experience is anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and
cheaper. What's not to like?

the one thing about the taxi trade is that they can't monopolies the market
through lower fares and then hike them when the competition pulls out
the barriers to entry for a taxi company are so low that if you take your
fares back up to the regulated maximum the competition will soon pile back
in again.
to keep the competition out you have to keep your fares low forever
which is fine if your costs of operation really are low enough to support
that, but does mean that operating an unsustainably low fare to grab market
share doesn't work.

Post by Roland Perry
History also shows that startups such as this are exceptional if they
succeed in the medium-long term, so what's your exit strategy if they pull
out of the Brighton market?

catch the bus
He's a user not an investor
And they aren't selling a unique product

Careful, Recliner will be along soon to tell you you are an idiot

Huh? Why would I do that? I invest in many venture capital funds, and am
well aware that many startups fail. I've also long thought that many IT
companies are over-valued.

No, it has the backing of large VC funds, which Amazon is not. Don't you
know the difference?

And I didn't discuss whether might one day fail to repay their investment.
What I pointed out was that losing lots of money at this stage in its life
was all part of the business plan, which its investors fully understood and
supported.

If you want an example of an over-hyped company with an absurd valuation,
which also loses money hand over fist, look at Tesla.

Post by tim...
On that basis you should hold the opinion that none of these billion dollar
companies can fail because it is 100% certain that all of them have the
backing of some large company or other

No. It just means you don't understand the difference between trading
companies and investment funds.

tim...

2017-04-02 10:11:27 UTC

Post by tim...
because that's what you did when I questioned the possibility that Uber
might fail in an earlier discussion
you used the spurious argument that some large company (Amazon was it) had
invested and they wouldn't be investing in a company that might fail.

No, it has the backing of large VC funds,

no you didn't, you named a specific HITech company - thinking more it was
probably Google

Post by Recliner
which Amazon is not. Don't you
know the difference?

Don't be silly

It is well know that all of the major HiTech companies invest in new starts
ups, separate from their trading operations.

They are awash with money, they have to do something with it.

Post by Recliner
And I didn't discuss whether might one day fail to repay their investment.

Yes you did - you told me I was an idiot for even considering the
possibility.

Post by Recliner
What I pointed out was that losing lots of money at this stage in its life
was all part of the business plan, which its investors fully understood and
supported.

Nope, that wasn't the conversation at all

Post by Recliner
If you want an example of an over-hyped company with an absurd valuation,
which also loses money hand over fist, look at Tesla.

Oh you agree then, I have been saying that for ages

No. It just means you don't understand the difference between trading
companies and investment funds.

Nonsense

You clearly said that the company wouldn't fail because some other company
had invested 100s of millions in it, and they wouldn't have done that if
there was a possibility it might fail. And you called me an idiot for
thinking otherwise.

The names of the companies here are irrelevant. The point that you made at
the time stood on its own merits (or not) without them.

Recliner

2017-04-02 14:28:36 UTC

No, it has the backing of large VC funds,

no you didn't, you named a specific HITech company - thinking more it was
probably Google

Post by Recliner
which Amazon is not. Don't you
know the difference?

Don't be silly
It is well know that all of the major HiTech companies invest in new starts
ups, separate from their trading operations.
They are awash with money, they have to do something with it.

Post by Recliner
And I didn't discuss whether might one day fail to repay their investment.

Yes you did - you told me I was an idiot for even considering the
possibility.

Post by Recliner
What I pointed out was that losing lots of money at this stage in its life
was all part of the business plan, which its investors fully understood and
supported.

Nope, that wasn't the conversation at all

Post by Recliner
If you want an example of an over-hyped company with an absurd valuation,
which also loses money hand over fist, look at Tesla.

Oh you agree then, I have been saying that for ages

No. It just means you don't understand the difference between trading
companies and investment funds.

Nonsense
You clearly said that the company wouldn't fail because some other company
had invested 100s of millions in it, and they wouldn't have done that if
there was a possibility it might fail. And you called me an idiot for
thinking otherwise.
The names of the companies here are irrelevant. The point that you made at
the time stood on its own merits (or not) without them.

That's definitely not the way I remember it. You're going to have to dig up
the thread if you want to pursue this.

D A Stocks

2017-04-01 17:47:48 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
History also shows that startups such as this are exceptional if they
succeed in the medium-long term, so what's your exit strategy if they
pull out of the Brighton market?

catch the bus
He's a user not an investor
And they aren't selling a unique product

I will happily take a taxi that is there over one that I have to call up on
my 'phone, even if the fare is a bit more. However, when you find yourself
at the back of a 20 minute queue at the rank for a 5 minute journey it's
time to look for alternatives. If GTR and the licensed taxi operators banged
their heads together they could very easily sort this problem out at
Brighton but they don't show any sign of doing that.

I don't see why I should spend more money supporting a model that is totally
broken against a cheaper alternative that looks like it works rather well.

--
DAS

Arthur Conan Doyle

2017-04-01 13:12:09 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

I used Uber Lux for a ride across London recently. Very nice. Wondered if the
driver was doing a little moonlighting with his employer's vehicle, but that's
his business.

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 13:58:40 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

I used Uber Lux for a ride across London recently. Very nice. Wondered if the
driver was doing a little moonlighting with his employer's vehicle, but that's
his business.

Might be yours if it turns out it wasn't insured for moonlighting, and
you get injured.

--
Roland Perry

D A Stocks

2017-04-01 16:14:08 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

I used Uber Lux for a ride across London recently. Very nice. Wondered if the
driver was doing a little moonlighting with his employer's vehicle, but that's
his business.

I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my understanding
is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.
--
DAS

tim...

2017-04-01 17:48:05 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

I used Uber Lux for a ride across London recently. Very nice. Wondered if the
driver was doing a little moonlighting with his employer's vehicle, but that's
his business.

I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my understanding
is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.

FSVO

The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them

but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be "borrowing"
it

(FTAOD - I'm not making some pedantic point about Lease-Hire)

tim

Recliner

2017-04-01 20:19:18 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

I used Uber Lux for a ride across London recently. Very nice. Wondered if the
driver was doing a little moonlighting with his employer's vehicle, but that's
his business.

I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my understanding
is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.

FSVO
The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them
but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be "borrowing"
it
(FTAOD - I'm not making some pedantic point about Lease-Hire)

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.

https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 21:06:05 UTC

In message
<936216406.512770374.204937.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 20:19:18 on Sat, 1 Apr 2017, Recliner

Post by tim...
The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them
but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be "borrowing"
it
(FTAOD - I'm not making some pedantic point about Lease-Hire)

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And reportedly
the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations and
renewals.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2017-04-01 21:44:09 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 20:19:18 on Sat, 1 Apr 2017, Recliner

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And reportedly
the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations and
renewals.

Do you have a link for that?

I'm not sure if this applies in the UK:

Uber requires all of their drivers to have car insurance, and provides
supplemental insurance coverage, but only while the app is on.

Here’s how it works: When the Uber app is off, a driver is covered by their
own personal car insurance. When the Uber app is turned on, a low level of
liability insurance becomes active. When a trip is accepted, a higher level
of coverage kicks in and remains active until the passenger exits the
vehicle. Previously Uber had only offered coverage when a passenger was in
the car, but the company updated their policy after a series of accidents
which resulted in various lawsuits.

From
<https://www.answerfinancial.com/insurance-center/how-does-car-insurance-work-for-uber-drivers>

Also see
<http://www.gocompare.com/taxi-insurance/uber-and-other-ride-sharing-apps/#2YBrm8moZhlIIt7v.97>

Roland Perry

2017-04-02 11:02:45 UTC

In message <576780849.512775565.610417.recliner.ng-

Post by Roland Perry
The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And reportedly
the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations and
renewals.

Do you have a link for that?
Uber requires all of their drivers to have car insurance, and provides
supplemental insurance coverage, but only while the app is on.
Here’s how it works: When the Uber app is off, a driver is covered by their
own personal car insurance. When the Uber app is turned on, a low level of
liability insurance becomes active. When a trip is accepted, a higher level
of coverage kicks in and remains active until the passenger exits the
vehicle. Previously Uber had only offered coverage when a passenger was in
the car, but the company updated their policy after a series of accidents
which resulted in various lawsuits.
From
<https://www.answerfinancial.com/insurance-center/how-does-car-insurance-work-for-uber-drivers>
Also see
<http://www.gocompare.com/taxi-insurance/uber-and-other-ride-sharing-apps/#2YBrm8moZhlIIt7v.97>

Why did Uber conduct a campaign against this, and decline to comment to
the paper, if "we already have hire and reward operator insurance", was
the case?

<http://www.cityam.com/249983/london-mayor-sadiq-khan-writes-uber-and-
other-private-hire>

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-02 10:14:10 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 20:19:18 on Sat, 1 Apr 2017, Recliner

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And reportedly
the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations

I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for that even if they wanted to

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-02 11:22:51 UTC

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And
reportedly the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations

I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for that even if they wanted to

They could do spot checks on the drivers, say once a month on average
for each, and blacklist the ones without insurance.

--
Roland Perry

Charles Ellson

2017-04-02 20:28:00 UTC

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And
reportedly the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations

I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for that even if they wanted to

They could do spot checks on the drivers, say once a month on average
for each, and blacklist the ones without insurance.

Presuming lack of access to insurers' databases then that depends on
production of paperwork for policies which could have been since
cancelled.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

Recliner

2017-04-02 14:28:36 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 20:19:18 on Sat, 1 Apr 2017, Recliner

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And reportedly
the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations

I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for that even if they wanted to

Yes, they apparently contact the insurance company the driver claimed to
have a policy with, and they could ask to be informed if the policy lapsed.
That may be even be available online.

tim...

2017-04-03 08:03:02 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 20:19:18 on Sat, 1 Apr 2017, Recliner

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle. Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership, suitability, whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/london/vehicle-requirements/

The main complaint is that they don't (do much checking). And reportedly
the problem with insurance is they don't track cancellations

I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for that even if they wanted to

Yes, they apparently contact the insurance company the driver claimed to
have a policy with,

well I guessed that they could do that

I just thought that doing that for 10,000 drivers, once a month (say) was
going to be too much aggro for both parties

Post by Recliner
and they could ask to be informed if the policy lapsed.
That may be even be available online.

It was this that I didn't thing was available

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-03 09:10:54 UTC

Post by tim...
I just thought that doing that for 10,000 drivers, once a month (say)
was going to be too much aggro for both parties

If you're running a billion-dollar business, you shouldn't just turn
your back on the costs of doing that business.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-03 10:48:22 UTC

Post by tim...
I just thought that doing that for 10,000 drivers, once a month (say) was
going to be too much aggro for both parties

If you're running a billion-dollar business, you shouldn't just turn your
back on the costs of doing that business.

but they are a technology business, they aren't a transport operator

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-03 11:04:03 UTC

Post by tim...
I just thought that doing that for 10,000 drivers, once a month (say)
was going to be too much aggro for both parties

If you're running a billion-dollar business, you shouldn't just turn
your back on the costs of doing that business.

but they are a technology business, they aren't a transport operator

That figleaf is rapidly eroding away. (Or were you being sarcastic)

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-03 11:19:40 UTC

Post by tim...
I just thought that doing that for 10,000 drivers, once a month (say)
was going to be too much aggro for both parties

If you're running a billion-dollar business, you shouldn't just turn
your back on the costs of doing that business.

but they are a technology business, they aren't a transport operator

That figleaf is rapidly eroding away.
(Or were you being sarcastic)

Obviously :-)

tim

tim...

2017-04-02 10:13:30 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

I used Uber Lux for a ride across London recently. Very nice. Wondered
if
the
driver was doing a little moonlighting with his employer's vehicle, but that's
his business.

I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my
understanding
is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.

FSVO
The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them
but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be "borrowing"
it
(FTAOD - I'm not making some pedantic point about Lease-Hire)

The driver can't just turn up in a random borrowed vehicle.

who said it was "randomly borrowed"

Post by Recliner
Uber must
approve, and knows exactly what car he drives. It presumably does some
checks on its ownership,

really - why on earth would it need to do that?

Post by Recliner
suitability,

this is just a case of looking at the marque and the age

Post by Recliner
whether it's licensed and insured for
private hire, etc.

Isn't this in the drivers name?

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 21:04:33 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my
understanding is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.

FSVO
The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them
but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be
"borrowing" it

See "and thus a lack of insurance".

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-02 10:18:38 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my
understanding is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.

FSVO
The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them
but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be
"borrowing" it

See "and thus a lack of insurance".

Can you not get private hire add-on insurance for a car that you do not own?

Surely the assessable additional part of the risk here sits with the driver.

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-02 11:24:26 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
I'm not sure if the rules for Uber Lux are different, but my
understanding is that Uber drivers use their own vehicles.

FSVO
The point about Uber's model is that they don't own them
but that doesn't mean that the driver does either - he could be
"borrowing" it

See "and thus a lack of insurance".

Can you not get private hire add-on insurance for a car that you do not own?

You might be able to, if you declare the vehicle.

Post by tim...
Surely the assessable additional part of the risk here sits with the driver.

The vehicle will make a difference too. A minibus, versus a Toyota
versus a Jag.

--
Roland Perry

e27002 aurora

2017-04-03 07:51:54 UTC

Post by D A Stocks
Uber first became available in Brighton and Hove about a year ago but when I
tried it soon after the launch there were never any drivers available, so I
have always used one of the local taxi firms booking by phone from home or
by taking a taxi off the rank from a local station. However, when I arrived
at Brighton Station last Thursday evening the length of queue at the rank
suggested it would be at least 10-15 minutes before I would get a ride (for
a 5 minute journey); this is because the daft queuing system only allows 1
or 2 taxis to load at a time, leading to long queues of both passengers and
taxis at busy times.
I fired up the Uber app and there were cars available within a couple of
minutes from a pick-up point just outside the station so I went for it. The
driver told me there are now around 90 drivers operating in the area, and
the fare was quite a bit less than a metered taxi. I may well take another
no more messing about with cash and and, if my initial experience is
anything to go by, nicer cars, nicer drivers and cheaper. What's not to
like?

App now installed on my Android.

tim...

2017-04-01 12:48:21 UTC

Post by e27002 aurora
OK, so I have had it with the Woking RailAir coach link.

still not got any better :-)

Post by e27002 aurora
I need an
alternative means of reaching the airport. Train from the South Coast
to Woking is fine. But what are the alternatives for reaching the
airport?

It used to be possible to use the bus from Walton

every 30 minutes up until 11pm

but it's now only hourly and the last one's at 7pm (Useless!)

tim

Theo

2017-04-01 13:38:22 UTC

What's the problem with the RailAir coach?
Is it M25-related?

Woking-Clapham Junction
Clapham Junction-Feltham
285 bus to LHR

is the most obvious alternative, though somewhat slow.

Guildford-Worcester Park
X26 bus to LHR

is one I haven't tried.

Post by e27002 aurora
Has anyone used Uber? How does it work? What is the service like?

I suspect if the M25 is borked then Woking to Heathrow is going to be
difficult whatever. Staying on the train and getting off a Surbiton (if it
stops) then taking a taxi might be one way to avoid it.

Theo

Basil Jet

2017-04-01 13:45:43 UTC

Post by Theo

What's the problem with the RailAir coach?
Is it M25-related?
Woking-Clapham Junction
Clapham Junction-Feltham
285 bus to LHR
is the most obvious alternative, though somewhat slow.
Guildford-Worcester Park
X26 bus to LHR
is one I haven't tried.

Weybridge has direct trains to Feltham.

tim...

2017-04-01 13:53:06 UTC

Post by Theo

What's the problem with the RailAir coach?

It gets delayed

It gets cancelled at the last minute (sometimes, but not always, due to the
above)

To catch up from a delay it sometimes dumps you at T4 (now T5) and doesn't
run to T123, leaving you to make your own way on HEx. This is OKish to the
airport but CFU for people travelling from the airport (as by the time they
find out that they need to take the train to T5 to pick up the bus it is too
late)

Oh and unless it has improved the people at the terminal don't have a
****ing clue where the bus is and how late it might be. WFT is it still
1980?

And OMG It only runs hourly now!!!! when did that happen?

Post by Theo
Is it M25-related?

sometimes

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 13:59:47 UTC

Post by Theo
Staying on the train and getting off a Surbiton (if it
stops) then taking a taxi might be one way to avoid it.

Having lived in Surbiton at one time, getting from there to Heathrow by
road is a nightmare.

--
Roland Perry

Basil Jet

2017-04-01 15:35:29 UTC

Post by Theo
Staying on the train and getting off a Surbiton (if it
stops) then taking a taxi might be one way to avoid it.

Having lived in Surbiton at one time, getting from there to Heathrow by
road is a nightmare.

When I lived in Sutton I used the X26 (or I think it was called 726
then) to get to Heathrow. It wasn't a nightmare, so I think you're
massively exagerating.

Roland Perry

2017-04-01 17:23:25 UTC

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Theo
Staying on the train and getting off a Surbiton (if it
stops) then taking a taxi might be one way to avoid it.

Having lived in Surbiton at one time, getting from there to Heathrow by
road is a nightmare.

When I lived in Sutton I used the X26 (or I think it was called 726
then) to get to Heathrow. It wasn't a nightmare, so I think you're
massively exagerating.

Mr Google says by car a little over an hour on a Monday morning, for 12
miles. That's pretty nightmarish.

--
Roland Perry

Michael R N Dolbear

2017-04-01 23:12:22 UTC

Post by Theo
Woking-Clapham Junction

Clapham Junction-Feltham
285 bus to LHR

Post by Theo
is the most obvious alternative, though somewhat slow.
Guildford-Worcester Park

X26 bus to LHR

Post by Theo
is one I haven't tried.
I suspect if the M25 is borked then Woking to Heathrow is going to be

difficult whatever. Staying on the train and getting off a Surbiton (if it
stops) then taking a taxi might be one way to avoid it.

Bus (any) Surbiton to Kingston then X26 to LHR is workable.

Rail via Weybridge to Egham or Staines then, eg 441 bus works but Feltham is
faster.

--
Mike D

Graham Harrison

2017-04-02 11:54:42 UTC

On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.

That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.

Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

Graeme Wall

2017-04-02 12:12:14 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.
That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.
Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

No flights from Southampton to the US.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graham Harrison

2017-04-02 14:33:25 UTC

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:12:14 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.
That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.
Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

No flights from Southampton to the US.

Not non-stop but by the time you've got to Heathrow (much less fought
your way through) you could be through Southampton and en-route to
Paris (as an example) to get a flight to the USA. And Gatwick does
have flights to the US (albeit, not many).

(Let's face it any long haul from Southampton means changing planes in
Europe somewhere).

Personally, I'd prefer the non-stop from Heathrow but that doesn't
mean our OP might not be prepared to avoid Heathrow.

Graeme Wall

2017-04-02 14:55:48 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:12:14 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.
That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.
Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

No flights from Southampton to the US.

Not non-stop but by the time you've got to Heathrow (much less fought
your way through) you could be through Southampton and en-route to
Paris (as an example) to get a flight to the USA.

The problem is most Paris - US flights use Charles de Gaulle and flights
from Southampton go to Orly. So no advantage. Years ago Air France did
operate a link between Southampton and CdG but that was best part of 30
years ago.

And Gatwick does

Post by Graham Harrison
have flights to the US (albeit, not many).
(Let's face it any long haul from Southampton means changing planes in
Europe somewhere).
Personally, I'd prefer the non-stop from Heathrow but that doesn't
mean our OP might not be prepared to avoid Heathrow.

I gather Adrian's complaint is not so much about using Heathrow as the
bus service from Woking which is fairly poor for such an important link.
The NRE website doesn't even give it as an option travelling from
Portsmouth

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graham Harrison

2017-04-02 17:58:17 UTC

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 15:55:48 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:12:14 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.
That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.
Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

No flights from Southampton to the US.

Not non-stop but by the time you've got to Heathrow (much less fought
your way through) you could be through Southampton and en-route to
Paris (as an example) to get a flight to the USA.

I think you need to update your knowledge. Flybe operate
Southampton/Charles de Gaulle.

But the precise detail isn't the issue. What I'm suggesting is that
by using a different airport and therefore avoiding the
Woking/Heathrow bus It MIGHT (and I stress might) be that the total
journey from home to destination could be as quick and less stressful.
The precise combination is going to depend on the actual start and end
points.

Whilst NRE says Portsmouth/Heathrow via Woking can be done in as
little as 2hrs 15 mins it also tells me that changing at Winchester
Birmingham International is 3hrs 15mins. If the Woking link is so
unreliable some people might argue that XC is a better bet and if the
flight times mesh with the flights a less congested airport such as
Birmingham (and even less congested, Southampton) might provide an
equivalent journey even allowing for the extra hour to get to
Birmingham and (depending on the destination) having to change en
route when Heathrow might be non-stop.

It could even be cheaper. When I was booking London/San Francisco
return last year a chance remark had me look at Manchester/London/San
Francisco. That was cheaper even though I was using the same flights
LON/SFO/LON. Aren't market forces wonderful?!

Her's a final thing. If you're going on holiday to Argentina and one
of the places you wnt to go to is Iguassu how do you get there? I
was so fixated on Argentina that I was assuming fly to Buenos Aires
then back to Iguassu. It wasn't until the agency I was using
suggested it that I realised a better way was London/Sao
Paulo/Iguassu, stay on the Brazilian side and then get a transfer to
the Argentine airport to continue to BA and, after touring othe bits
of Argentina fly non stop back to London.

A bit of flexibility and thinking a little out of the box can
sometimes bear fruit.

Graeme Wall

2017-04-02 18:20:21 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 15:55:48 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:12:14 +0100, Graeme Wall

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.
That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.
Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

No flights from Southampton to the US.

Not non-stop but by the time you've got to Heathrow (much less fought
your way through) you could be through Southampton and en-route to
Paris (as an example) to get a flight to the USA.

I think you need to update your knowledge. Flybe operate
Southampton/Charles de Gaulle.

That's fairly recent, thanks for the update. Ignore my remarks then.

[snip]

Post by Graham Harrison
Her's a final thing. If you're going on holiday to Argentina and one
of the places you wnt to go to is Iguassu how do you get there? I
was so fixated on Argentina that I was assuming fly to Buenos Aires
then back to Iguassu. It wasn't until the agency I was using
suggested it that I realised a better way was London/Sao
Paulo/Iguassu, stay on the Brazilian side and then get a transfer to
the Argentine airport to continue to BA and, after touring othe bits
of Argentina fly non stop back to London.

When we go to Buenos Aires we are visiting her indoors' rellies, so tend
to go direct there and then travel on later, which is the practical
option anyway of heading south or west. Last time we did Iguacu we took
a long distance bus from BA that does an overnight run. It's better
than it sounds, the initial bit out to Zarate to cross the Parana river
is quite interesting but then it gets fairly boring until you are most
of the way there, that's the bit you do at night.

Also when we did it, open-jaw tickets were very expensive.[1] The
modern system of booking each leg separately makes it a much more
economical proposition to do it the way you did.

PS Hope you enjoyed the trip, Iguacu is much more impressive than Niagara.

[1] At the time straightforward return tickets weren't particularly
cheap either.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

D A Stocks

2017-04-02 18:35:12 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
A bit of flexibility and thinking a little out of the box can
sometimes bear fruit.

One possibility may be to fly via Dublin or Shannon. You can pre-clear US
immigration and customs (you arrive in the USA as a domestic flight) and,
with a bit of creative ticketing, you can save a small fortune on UK
departure tax.

--
DAS

Roland Perry

2017-04-02 18:56:06 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
It could even be cheaper. When I was booking London/San Francisco
return last year a chance remark had me look at Manchester/London/San
Francisco. That was cheaper even though I was using the same flights
LON/SFO/LON. Aren't market forces wonderful?!

That's because you were in fact paying the "right" price, and people
paying more were mainly doing so for the perceived benefit of both a
direct flight and easier access (for them) because it's Heathrow.

Market forces do play a small part in that the airline would prefer to
sell the lucrative trans-atlantic leg to a passenger they subsidise on
the domestic leg, rather than have them fly from Manchester direct to
the USA on different airline, leaving them an empty seat.

There's also a certain amount of "no-one got fired buying a direct
ticket on a well known airline from Heathrow" effect.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-03 08:00:48 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 15:55:48 +0100, Graeme Wall
I think you need to update your knowledge. Flybe operate
Southampton/Charles de Gaulle.

But it's not a good idea booking a transatlantic fight (any long haul) using
a non-inline connection

the costs of your local flight being late/cancelled are too large

tim

Graeme Wall

2017-04-03 08:17:19 UTC

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 15:55:48 +0100, Graeme Wall
I think you need to update your knowledge. Flybe operate
Southampton/Charles de Gaulle.

But it's not a good idea booking a transatlantic fight (any long haul)
using a non-inline connection
the costs of your local flight being late/cancelled are too large

That was the advantage of the original service, it was operated by Air
France so I could book through to Buenos Aires via CdG in safety. Ten
the service was taken over by BA an operated initially by Manx Airways
and switched to Orly. As Graham has pointed out, Flybe now serve CdG so
it is worth looking at again.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

e27002 aurora

2017-04-03 08:21:10 UTC

On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 12:54:42 +0100, Graham Harrison

Post by Graham Harrison
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:47:12 +0100, e27002 aurora

There are very good reasons to go to Heathrow - I still go there to
catch long haul flights. I'm prepared to put up with GWR to Reading
then the bus to get a non stop flight. Equally Gatwick sometimes via
Reading.
That said, going from Bristol, Southampton or Exeter (all
possibilities for me) means a shorter and easier journey at the UK end
but for long haul will mean a chage of plane somewhere.
Are you in a position to make somekind of trade off and use either
Southampton or Gatwick?

Gatwick would be wonderful. Unfortunately, my destinations are
usually easily available from Gatwick.

So, two weeks back my Air China ' plane touched down just before 16:00
after a 12-hour flight from Beijing. I had risen at 5:30 CST in Hebei
province to reach the airport in plenty of time. 5:30 CST is 21:30
GMT the previous day.

By 17:00, having cleared immigration, picked up my baggage and passed
thru customs, I was at the Heathrow Central bus station. There I had
a thirty-five-minute wait for the express to Woking.

Customarily the driver stows one's baggage. That evening he told his
passengers to stow their own baggage. I would add my back was not in
good shape.

At Woking, I caught a delayed fast train at about 18:16. Unfortunately
someone used it to terminate his earthly life between Worplesdon and
Guildford. And, we were held outside Guildford for 2.5 hours. At
Guildford, not unreasonably all passengers had to alight. Within ten
minutes we were on a stopping service to Portsmouth. I walked into my
UK home at about 23:00.

It is very likely a minicab, or taxi, would have gotten me to Woking
considerably earlier. There are three trains an hour on the
Portsmouth direct. So, chances are I would have caught an earlier
train and been home by 20:30 - 21:00.

As an aside, the events of that evening showed the value of having a
guard on board. Apparently, the driver went into shock. The card
called the BTP, and Network Rail. He saw that the driver was given
tea and comfort. As we lost heating and the lighting the guard dealt
with a sick passenger and a lady going into labour. The issue of the
role of guards needs careful attention before they are eliminated.

Roland Perry

2017-04-03 09:15:59 UTC

Post by e27002 aurora
As an aside, the events of that evening showed the value of having a
guard on board. Apparently, the driver went into shock. The card
called the BTP, and Network Rail. He saw that the driver was given
tea and comfort. As we lost heating and the lighting the guard dealt
with a sick passenger and a lady going into labour. The issue of the
role of guards needs careful attention before they are eliminated.

Now that almost everyone has a mobile phone passengers can call for an
ambulance for a lady going into labour. And if they are miles from a
station, that's what air ambulances are for.

The balance here is between the cost of guards on every train, every
day, the cost of sending an air ambulance to a scene like that about
once a month in the whole country.

In any event, many trains will still have a second member of staff on
board, to check tickets. It's just that they won't have the power to
close the doors, and have "guard - I'm paid twice as much" on the name
badge.

--
Roland Perry

Martin Coffee

2017-04-03 10:49:33 UTC

Now that almost everyone has a mobile phone passengers can call for an
ambulance for a lady going into labour. And if they are miles from a
station, that's what air ambulances are for.
The balance here is between the cost of guards on every train, every
day, the cost of sending an air ambulance to a scene like that about
once a month in the whole country.
In any event, many trains will still have a second member of staff on
board, to check tickets. It's just that they won't have the power to
close the doors, and have "guard - I'm paid twice as much" on the name
badge.

But some lines (and tunnels) don't have mobile coverage.

I travelled between Cardiff and Netley on Wednesday and Thursday and at
least 20% of that route has absolutely no mobile coverage but
fortunately still has a guard.

If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

I just pray that the the new orders are not DOO Faraday screens.

Graeme Wall

2017-04-03 10:58:47 UTC

Now that almost everyone has a mobile phone passengers can call for an
ambulance for a lady going into labour. And if they are miles from a
station, that's what air ambulances are for.
The balance here is between the cost of guards on every train, every
day, the cost of sending an air ambulance to a scene like that about
once a month in the whole country.
In any event, many trains will still have a second member of staff on
board, to check tickets. It's just that they won't have the power to
close the doors, and have "guard - I'm paid twice as much" on the name
badge.

But some lines (and tunnels) don't have mobile coverage.
I travelled between Cardiff and Netley on Wednesday and Thursday and at
least 20% of that route has absolutely no mobile coverage but
fortunately still has a guard.
If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2017-04-03 11:25:25 UTC

Now that almost everyone has a mobile phone passengers can call for an
ambulance for a lady going into labour. And if they are miles from a
station, that's what air ambulances are for.
The balance here is between the cost of guards on every train, every
day, the cost of sending an air ambulance to a scene like that about
once a month in the whole country.
In any event, many trains will still have a second member of staff on
board, to check tickets. It's just that they won't have the power to
close the doors, and have "guard - I'm paid twice as much" on the name
badge.

But some lines (and tunnels) don't have mobile coverage.
I travelled between Cardiff and Netley on Wednesday and Thursday and at
least 20% of that route has absolutely no mobile coverage but
fortunately still has a guard.
If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

Use GSM-R.

If that has failed, walk to the nearest SPT/other phone (e.g. crossing
etc).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Martin Coffee

2017-04-03 13:03:26 UTC

Now that almost everyone has a mobile phone passengers can call for an
ambulance for a lady going into labour. And if they are miles from a
station, that's what air ambulances are for.
The balance here is between the cost of guards on every train, every
day, the cost of sending an air ambulance to a scene like that about
once a month in the whole country.
In any event, many trains will still have a second member of staff on
board, to check tickets. It's just that they won't have the power to
close the doors, and have "guard - I'm paid twice as much" on the name
badge.

But some lines (and tunnels) don't have mobile coverage.
I travelled between Cardiff and Netley on Wednesday and Thursday and at
least 20% of that route has absolutely no mobile coverage but
fortunately still has a guard.
If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

Network Rail have their own communication system which will work in
those areas.

Roland Perry

2017-04-03 20:05:32 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

Network Rail have their own communication system which will work in
those areas.

Do they issue GSM-R handsets to guards (genuine question).

--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2017-04-03 23:33:00 UTC

Post by Graeme Wall
If there is no mobile phone coverage, what is the guard going to do?

Network Rail have their own communication system which will work in
those areas.

Do they issue GSM-R handsets to guards (genuine question).

No. But the one in the back- or intermediate- cab can easily be turned on.
That doesn't, of course, help if the train involved is an HST or is
loco-hauled with the DVT leading (or with no DVT).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2017-04-03 20:04:03 UTC

Post by Martin Coffee
If a train is stranded without a functional driver then the situation
can serious especially if the signalling is such that the signaller
doesn't know exactly where the train is. I dread to think what might
happen if this is somewhere without mobile coverage.

It's a balance between what might go wrong once a year, and the cost of
all those guards.

--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver

2017-04-03 23:33:00 UTC

It's a balance between what might go wrong once a year, and the cost of
all those guards.

Taking the recent concrete example of introduction of DOO, I'm pretty sure
the agreements on Southern (for now at least) involve a member of staff
being on every train (with limited exceptions), and I'm pretty sure they
were re-employed on their new contracts with no loss of pay. Obviously both
of these things may change in the future, but at present, where does your
huge cash saving come from?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry

2017-04-04 07:02:21 UTC

It's a balance between what might go wrong once a year, and the cost of
all those guards.

The ongoing training programme, training of new guards, and as you
suggest the employment of new on-train staff at a different grade,
despite not "demoting" the grandfathered-in existing guards.

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2017-04-04 10:20:17 UTC

It's a balance between what might go wrong once a year, and the cost of
all those guards.

The ongoing training programme, training of new guards, and as you suggest
the employment of new on-train staff at a different grade, despite not
"demoting" the grandfathered-in existing guards.

That's what BA did when it hired in new starters (on lower salaries) to work
new routes from LGW.

and look what happens

a couple of years later they go on strike because they aren't earning the
same as legacy workers flying from LHR.

tim

Roland Perry

2017-04-04 14:47:20 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
The ongoing training programme, training of new guards, and as you
suggest the employment of new on-train staff at a different grade,
despite not "demoting" the grandfathered-in existing guards.

That's what BA did when it hired in new starters (on lower salaries) to
work new routes from LGW.
and look what happens
a couple of years later they go on strike because they aren't earning
the same as legacy workers flying from LHR.

Still saved (and is saving) BA a lot of money.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2017-04-04 20:41:54 UTC