Why can't bendy buses be longer?

[Karsten Loeft]

Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

The tram has rails to keep each of its axles exactly on its track. Isn't it
possible to design a bus with a system to actively steer each axle in such
a way that it exactly follows the lane (or "track") being travelled by the
axles in front of it? That way the very long bus could still take sharp
bends, like a tram can.

In order to be able to drive backwards, the bus could be equipped with a
driver cabin on each end, again like a tram.

[julie j]

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

Switzerland is rolling out absolultely huge (for a bus) three-section
articulated trolley buses. They are already in service (or on order) in
Z�rich, Luzern, Geneve and St Gallen.

Here's a photo of one in Zurich:

Loading Image...

It's a Geneve one on loan to Z�rich for trials.

[Hans-Joachim Zierke]

Post by julie j
Switzerland is rolling out absolultely huge (for a bus) three-section
articulated trolley buses. They are already in service (or on order) in
Zürich, Luzern, Geneve and St Gallen.
http://www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/set/Zuerich-199-31.jpg

A typical management's bus (in difference to a driver's bus). Take the
driver's seat for backing it up, to learn what I mean.

Of course, the management's answer will be, that you don't have to.


The biggest well-behaved bus is the Evobus Capacity.
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...



Hans-Joachim

[John Mara]

Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke

Post by julie j
Switzerland is rolling out absolultely huge (for a bus) three-section
articulated trolley buses. They are already in service (or on order) in
Zürich, Luzern, Geneve and St Gallen.
http://www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/set/Zuerich-199-31.jpg

A typical management's bus (in difference to a driver's bus). Take the
driver's seat for backing it up, to learn what I mean.
Of course, the management's answer will be, that you don't have to.

Isn't it pretty hard to back up a trolley bus anyway?

John Mara

[Hans-Joachim Zierke]

Post by John Mara
Isn't it pretty hard to back up a trolley bus anyway?

In my university days, I made some money as a truck driver, and was
mostly driving trucks like this
Loading Image...
or this
Loading Image...
(not the same type, but the same tech and geometry)

Most people assume, that they aren't easy to back up, and indeed, when
I did it for the first time ... emmh ... well ... I better don't talk
about it in public. ;-)
But after a while, it wasn't all that difficult.



I assume the same to be true for bendy buses - horrible on first try,
not that difficult with some experience. But when it comes to
double-bendy, put the manager behind the steering wheel, and let him
show it.


Hans-Joachim

[Access Systems]

Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke

Post by John Mara
Isn't it pretty hard to back up a trolley bus anyway?

In my university days, I made some money as a truck driver, and was
mostly driving trucks like this

in College (I was an older student)I drove buses, transit and coach, now
while I didn't drive in service an artic I was trained in them and the
first time you go around a corner and look out and see your own bus coming
around the corner behind you is disconcerting to say the least.

Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Most people assume, that they aren't easy to back up, and indeed, when
I did it for the first time ... emmh ... well ... I better don't talk
about it in public. ;-)
But after a while, it wasn't all that difficult.

amen

Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
I assume the same to be true for bendy buses - horrible on first try,
not that difficult with some experience. But when it comes to
double-bendy, put the manager behind the steering wheel, and let him
show it.

I think I prefer a non steering rear axle to back up, but you can get used
to just about anything with practice. fortunately they don't need to back
up too often.

Bob
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NO RESPONSE WILL EVER BE GIVEN TO ANY MESSAGE VIA EARTHLINK
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob
NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail ***@smartnospam.net
NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers
NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named

[julie j]

Post by Karsten Loeft
In order to be able to drive backwards, the bus could be equipped with a
driver cabin on each end, again like a tram.

The trolley buses in Liege, Belgium, did this. They stopped running in
... mumble mumble well before I was born. Maybe in the 1950s.

Only some trams are double-ended. Plenty of them are single-ended like
a bus. I think it would overly complicate things to have a double-ended
trolley bus. The Swiss example of triple-section trolley buses show
length is not a problem.

[R.C. Payne]

Post by julie j

Post by Karsten Loeft
In order to be able to drive backwards, the bus could be equipped with a
driver cabin on each end, again like a tram.

The trolley buses in Liege, Belgium, did this. They stopped running in
... mumble mumble well before I was born. Maybe in the 1950s.
Only some trams are double-ended. Plenty of them are single-ended like
a bus. I think it would overly complicate things to have a double-ended
trolley bus. The Swiss example of triple-section trolley buses show
length is not a problem.

Though plenty of single ended trams have at least some sort of driving
position at the rear end, if only for shunting moves.

Robin

[Access Systems]

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.

there is a very limited exception in Washingto DC for special vehicles
over about 6 blocks of city streets between two points.

unless this law is changed they cannot be operated in the USA.

Bob
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NO RESPONSE WILL EVER BE GIVEN TO ANY MESSAGE VIA EARTHLINK
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob
NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail ***@smartnospam.net
NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers
NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named

[p***@yahoo.com]

Post by Access Systems

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.
there is a very limited exception in Washingto DC for special vehicles
over about 6 blocks of city streets between two points.
unless this law is changed they cannot be operated in the USA.
Bob

Umm, I think you may want to research this some more. A lot of transit
systems have artic busses, including WAMATA and NYC. They were opposed
in NYC for a long time because of the possiblity of
creating gridlock if they stopped mid block, but it was decided thay
even with that possibilty, they were still worth it. I doubt if you
will see them any longer then they are now. I doubt if people would be
enthralled with a bus that is as long as a city block.


Take care, Randy in Clearwater, FL

[Dik T. Winter]

...

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Access Systems
in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.

...

Post by p***@yahoo.com
Umm, I think you may want to research this some more. A lot of transit
systems have artic busses, including WAMATA and NYC.

You should do a bit of research. An artic bus is about 60 ft. The
original question was not about artics but about longer buses, like
the double artics (of about 80 ft) that are currently running in a
few cities around Europe.

I may note that especially in Germany there are trams running on public
streets that are about 160 ft long (two coupled double articulated trams
easily get at that figure). The question was why that can not be done
with buses.

[julie j]

Post by Dik T. Winter
I may note that especially in Germany there are trams running on public
streets that are about 160 ft long (two coupled double articulated trams
easily get at that figure).

Hardly any new trams are just double-articulated any more. Most
Combinos and Citadises for example start at five sections now and seven
are becoming popular. Look at the huge Eurotrams in Starsbourg. What
are they? Seven or nine?

[John Kane]

Post by Dik T. Winter
...

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Access Systems
in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.

...

Post by p***@yahoo.com
Umm, I think you may want to research this some more. A lot of transit
systems have artic busses, including WAMATA and NYC.

You should do a bit of research. An artic bus is about 60 ft. The
original question was not about artics but about longer buses, like
the double artics (of about 80 ft) that are currently running in a
few cities around Europe.
I may note that especially in Germany there are trams running on public
streets that are about 160 ft long (two coupled double articulated trams
easily get at that figure). The question was why that can not be done
with buses.

It may depend on where you are. Guess 1. Some of the longer artics
could not make most corners and it may not be cost effective to have a
few units for one or two runs. Trans being on dedicated track don't
face this problem.

Guess 2. From some reports from drivers in Ottawa the arctis there are
pigs in snow. So one may not want anything longer in a place with snow.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

[julie j]

Post by John Kane
Guess 2. From some reports from drivers in Ottawa the arctis there are
pigs in snow. So one may not want anything longer in a place with snow.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Well, there is plenty of snow in Europe, and plenty of articulated
trolley buses as well.

Z�rich and the other Swiss cities getting double-articulated trolley
buses of the kind I linked a picture to have heaps of snow.

[Dik T. Winter]

...

Post by John Kane

Post by Dik T. Winter
You should do a bit of research. An artic bus is about 60 ft. The
original question was not about artics but about longer buses, like
the double artics (of about 80 ft) that are currently running in a
few cities around Europe.

...

Post by John Kane
It may depend on where you are. Guess 1. Some of the longer artics
could not make most corners and it may not be cost effective to have a
few units for one or two runs. Trans being on dedicated track don't
face this problem.

I do not think the current generation of artics can not make the same
corners as standard buses. With reactive steering on the reer wheels
they can make pretty tight corners here in Amsterdam (and there are a
lot). I think it is less effective with double artics, but it still
can be pretty tight. On an exhibition Ihave been sitting in a Renault
example where both articulations were bend at about 45 degrees, and
it was still riding. Reactive steering on the third and fourth axle.
The need a slightly wider circle whereing the bus can run, but in the
Netherlands, the circle wherein every vehicle must be able to run is
pretty tight.

Post by John Kane
Guess 2. From some reports from drivers in Ottawa the arctis there are
pigs in snow. So one may not want anything longer in a place with snow.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

I do not know for certain, but I think that also in Scandinavia artics
are running around. Like in Stockholm. I think it is more a problem
with the artics in Ottawa.

[drum118]

Post by John Kane

Post by Dik T. Winter
...

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Access Systems
in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.

...

Post by p***@yahoo.com
Umm, I think you may want to research this some more. A lot of transit
systems have artic busses, including WAMATA and NYC.

You should do a bit of research. An artic bus is about 60 ft. The
original question was not about artics but about longer buses, like
the double artics (of about 80 ft) that are currently running in a
few cities around Europe.
I may note that especially in Germany there are trams running on public
streets that are about 160 ft long (two coupled double articulated trams
easily get at that figure). The question was why that can not be done
with buses.

It may depend on where you are. Guess 1. Some of the longer artics
could not make most corners and it may not be cost effective to have a
few units for one or two runs. Trans being on dedicated track don't
face this problem.
Guess 2. From some reports from drivers in Ottawa the arctis there are
pigs in snow. So one may not want anything longer in a place with snow.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Any NA Arctis are pigs as they are push where off shore VanHool AG300
use by YRT are pull. Cannot push a dam

The pigs are fine for non snowland systems, but once snow falls or the
road comes grease's, they should be taken off the road because they are
useless.

It going to be interesting to see how TTC handles 28m trams in the next
5 year as they replace the current fleet of 15-22m trams with LF LRT's.

Laws can be change like they are now for double deck buses.

[David Lesher]

Post by John Kane
Guess 2. From some reports from drivers in Ottawa the arctis there are
pigs in snow. So one may not want anything longer in a place with snow.

To say the least...given the real axle does the pushing, any slippery
condition is a recipe for a jackknife..

I've wondered why no one makes an hybrid all-wheel-drive arctic.

[David Lesher]

Post by David Lesher
To say the least...given the real axle does the pushing, any slippery

Make that "rear-axle"...

[g***@yahoo.com]

Post by John Kane
Guess 2. From some reports from drivers in Ottawa the arctis there are
pigs in snow. So one may not want anything longer in a place with snow.

To say the least...given the rear axle does the pushing, any slippery
condition is a recipe for a jackknife..

My impression was that was a major problem with the Seattle articulated
electric / diesel buses: in one of the modes (diesel I think) the driving
axle was the rear axle. Seattle doesn't get that much ice or snow, but
apparently this type of bus had a lot of initial probems, even given the
relatively mild climate they have there.

My understanding is that they have addressed most of those issues and the
dual powered vehicles have become regularly used pieces of equipment now.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Access Systems

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.
there is a very limited exception in Washingto DC for special vehicles
over about 6 blocks of city streets between two points.
unless this law is changed they cannot be operated in the USA.
Bob

Umm, I think you may want to research this some more. A lot of transit
systems have artic busses, including WAMATA and NYC. They were opposed
in NYC for a long time because of the possiblity of
creating gridlock if they stopped mid block, but it was decided thay
even with that possibilty, they were still worth it. I doubt if you
will see them any longer then they are now. I doubt if people would be
enthralled with a bus that is as long as a city block.
Take care, Randy in Clearwater, FL

Randy's right. Here on the west coast in the United States, bendy buses
a.k.a. articulated buses, exist:

Las Vegas
All through Orange County (by where I live, in Whittier, though not in
the OC proper but less than a half hour east thereof)
Most of Los Angeles area west of my hometown of Whitter.

Also Vegas has double deckers! They're called The Deuce (nothing like
tying in to a Vega$ theme).

[Dik T. Winter]

...

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Access Systems
in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.

...

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by p***@yahoo.com
Umm, I think you may want to research this some more. A lot of transit
systems have artic busses, including WAMATA and NYC. They were opposed
in NYC for a long time because of the possiblity of
creating gridlock if they stopped mid block, but it was decided thay
even with that possibilty, they were still worth it. I doubt if you
will see them any longer then they are now. I doubt if people would be
enthralled with a bus that is as long as a city block.

...

Post by g***@aol.com
Randy's right. Here on the west coast in the United States, bendy buses

Note that Randy is talking about articulated buses while Bob is talking
about doubly articulated buses. Also in Europe the introduction of
articulated buses was slowly accepted. I think the first true articulated
buses were introduced in Germany in the 1950's. When they were introduced
in the Netherlands around 1956 there was a law that the rear part (which
was thought of as being a trailer) had two axles. So only a few were
introduced, note that length was not a problem. 60 feet (18 metres) was
quite acceptable. It was only much later that a single axle was permitted
overhere and that made articulated buses acceptable. There were still
legistic problems with propulsion from the rear axle, but that also has
been solved. And now doubly articulated buses are permitted only under
specific conditions. (I think they were first introduced in France by
Renault.) Also 50 feet buses are permitted only under some specific
condition, with specified routes.

In the UK articulated buses were only accepted around 2000. But there is
now a large fleet running in London (the last time I looked, mostly
Mercedes Citaros), and apparently quite accepted. And that while a
former regulation imposed limits of less than 40 feet (hence the double
deckers).

[s***@lycos.co.uk]

Post by Access Systems

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.
there is a very limited exception in Washingto DC for special vehicles
over about 6 blocks of city streets between two points.
unless this law is changed they cannot be operated in the USA.

The EU-wide limit for Artics is 18.5m but some member states allow up
to 24m, the later being three section buses.

[David Lesher]

Post by Access Systems

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.
there is a very limited exception in Washingto DC for special vehicles
over about 6 blocks of city streets between two points.
unless this law is changed they cannot be operated in the USA.

Err, what law? Federal, State or Local? I recall some transit buses
were 6" too wide for Innerstate Highway use, but exempted for that
city's streets. I suppose in theory they could be ticketed on
on I-90 but they never were.

I can't imagine a 75M long bus in Midtown. That's gridlock by itself.

[Access Systems]

Post by David Lesher

Post by Access Systems

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?

in the USA the law is such that the buses cannot exceed 60 ft on public
streets. some states do not allow ANY double articulated vehicles.
unless this law is changed they cannot be operated in the USA.

Err, what law? Federal, State or Local? I recall some transit buses

Federal

Post by David Lesher
were 6" too wide for Innerstate Highway use, but exempted for that
city's streets. I suppose in theory they could be ticketed on
on I-90 but they never were.

those MC-6 buses were indeed ticketed and in fact Fla impounded a few. in
thier later years the only place they were used was Phila-NYC via the
NJturnpike (where they were granted a variance)

Post by David Lesher
I can't imagine a 75M long bus in Midtown. That's gridlock by itself.

bet the BRT folks push em.

Bob
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NO RESPONSE WILL EVER BE GIVEN TO ANY MESSAGE VIA EARTHLINK
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob
NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail ***@smartnospam.net
NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers
NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named

[Hans-Joachim Zierke]

Post by David Lesher
I can't imagine a 75M long bus in Midtown. That's gridlock by itself.

The 75m aren't the problem. Here you have 75m in midtown, and it works:

Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

No gridlock, just the opposite: It removes a gridlock. On days with big
trade fairs, the city of Hannover allows to increase tram length to 100m
between midtown and fairground, in order to avoid a gridlock!
Loading Image...
What you see on the photo, is the replacement of 500 cars, they are
packed on such days.



The real problem is, that you can run a long tram day in, day out,
without having it add a lot of costs to those caused by the driver, but
if you run super-long bendy buses off peak with a few people inside,
just the tyre and diesel costs eat you alive. Not to forget that all
these bus guidance systems have considerable maintenance costs, with
rail grinding and the wheel lathe being a discount offer in comparison.


Hans-Joachim

[Dik T. Winter]

Post by Karsten Loeft
Why can't bendy buses (articulated buses) be as long as a tram (up to 75 m
in Germany), when operating in normal traffic?
The tram has rails to keep each of its axles exactly on its track.

Indeed, but the tram axles are steered by the track (and there is friction
between wheels and track).

Post by Karsten Loeft
Isn't it
possible to design a bus with a system to actively steer each axle in such
a way that it exactly follows the lane (or "track") being travelled by the
axles in front of it?

Apparently not.

Post by Karsten Loeft
That way the very long bus could still take sharp
bends, like a tram can.

But they can, nearly. An articulated bus in Amsterdam can make just as
sharp a bend as a normal bus because of the steering of the rear axle.
But that is still not as sharp a bend as a tram can make. And in Utrecht
there are already since a long time doubly articulated buses that can make
the same bends as a normal bus, but still not as sharp as a tram.

Post by Karsten Loeft
In order to be able to drive backwards, the bus could be equipped with a
driver cabin on each end, again like a tram.

That would require that there was also active steering on the rear side.

What you do not see is the surprises the driver comes to when the rear
wheels would exactly follow the front wheels. There is no standard
motorvehicle that has this, because it would require a whole lot of
relearning driving.